The renewed Climate Debate 2-10-09

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Re: The renewed Climate Debate 2-10-09

Postby donander » 17/07/10 22:23

Charlie, please do not take any of my comments below as personal. I’m just trying to point out that what we’re seeing is less than a blink in geological history.
The drying weather conditions, springs that are no more, creeks that haven't run for 15 years, which were previously never dry. Plants flowering way out of season, animals breeding out of season, birds nesting out of season. probably other things that I've forgotten.

Melbourne went thru severe water restrictions in the early seventies. Drought is nothing new to Australia or Victoria in particular.
Have a look at this Australian Rainfall Map:
http://www.longpaddock.qld.gov.au/products/australiasvariableclimate/index.html
Update 2005 - present:
http://www.longpaddock.qld.gov.au/products/pdf/MapUpdate_forPoster.pdf
Check out the period 1918-19 to 1948-49. Australia is a very dry place. Current climate would appear to be proving that fact.
From other correspondents in other countries, much the same over the last five or so years, maybe longer.

Less than a blink in the Earth’s history ...
This can't be all coincidence, or do you think it is?

Coincidence ? Maybe. Definitely natural variation.
15 years ago this area went from a winter rainfall to a summer rainfall area, That was weird, but that continued and became drier over the last ten years. We used to be able to run 120 sheep here, but are down to thirty on this small landholding. No vegetable garden because our dam hasn't been filled but one year in ten and evaporated just as quickly. That's climate change or what would you call it?

Definitely climate change, no argument. Question is what is causing it? Is it natural variation or is the fault of our modern lifestyles and that evil gas carbon dioxide (CO2). Temperatures have been gradually rising since the end of the Little Ice Age in the mid nineteenth century (look it up). There have been ups and downs along the way and you may remember in the early seventies, some of the current alarmists, eg James Lovelock, were predicting disaster in the form of a new ice age.
That could be a 15 year drought, but this area has never had a 15 year drought before, so if nothing's changed, what's changed?

Australia is a very dry continent; refer to the QLD Government’s LongPaddock website (see above). Download their chart. See how much blue (wet) and red (dry) there is. It doesn’t take much analysis, just a glance.
Do you live in the city Donander? I'm almost certain that people in the city have seen little change, or maybe they have noticed little change? By asking what I had seen changed means you didn't read my post. Wind speeds were another I cited, people finding their roofs suddenly lost and trees that are tens maybe even a hundred years old suddenly being blown over. If that's not wind speed, then could it be stronger winds from another direction.

I live near Brisbane but we travel extensively in the outback, just back from the Jackson oil fields where the drought broke earlier this year. I've lived and taught in the QLD bush (many years ago <sigh>).

Old trees get blown over frequently, everywhere. High winds, floods, mudslides & other natural disasters look more severe nowdays because more people are affected: Population expansion, building in marginal areas, etc. We went thru a severe drought (unheard of in SE QLD) for about seven years if memory serves. It has broken with a vengeance as will yours. I feel for you in the meantime but the solution is beyond us mere humans. That big round orange thing in the sky is the culprit, aided and abetted by orbital fluctuations, galactic cosmic rays, ocean currents, precession and a myriad of other factors, each potentially having a chaotic effect on the others.
We live close to the source, solar power and catching water in tanks doesn't make us researchers, but certainly means we're awake. [laughing] We have to be aware and work accordingly and yes we miss or vegetable garden. We have always noticed the climate changing, the world is in flux, we just can't pinpoint why the climate is changing.

You can be certain it’s not because of CO2. However, politicians want to tax “carbon”, they call it pollution but carbon dioxide is an essential, life sustaining trace gas. Without it, plants, animals and us will die.

Remember my reference to geological time and compare your time on the planet with Earth’s history. You may have gathered that I am passionate about the garbage we're being fed by the media and governments, only ever one side of the story, no mention of the hundreds, thousands of scientists in climate and related disciplines who dispute the IPCC's findings. http://www.populartechnology.net/2009/10/peer-reviewed-papers-supporting.html

Problem is a "Don't worry, climate change is natural" headline won't sell. Media needs disaster and governments need our tax dollars.

I’d really like to opportunity to discuss the whole business with you over a glass or two (Shiraz will do :wink ). It's a long time since I visited Victoria.
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Re: The renewed Climate Debate 2-10-09

Postby Charlie » 18/07/10 21:19

Hello again Donander,

No offence taken. It's a good discussion. Much of what you say sounds true of the past, as did the things I didn't agree with which Pauline Hanson espoused of that present. However, the things I see, experience and feel in my water have been my guide in life and they have stood me in good stead. It doesn't really matter, if you are right, you will throw your arm round my shoulder and we will celebrate together [we have a winery just 1.5 kilometre down the road, they also make cider] Neither does it matter if we who believe that it is human population and misuse of the planets resources are at fault and therefore proved right, we shall put our arms round your shoulder and be happy to have you come with us and help you get out from under the worse of the problems that will be falling round all our ears. That's just how it is. All will be forgotten. [laughing] However wine and cider might be too expensive to drink; though I feel that clean water will cost more. [smiling]

Be well,
Charlie
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but a seed to be planted and to bear more seed toward the hope of greening
the landscape of the idea.___John Ciardi
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Re: The renewed Climate Debate 2-10-09

Postby donander » 18/07/10 22:02

Charlie wrote:[Snip] ... if you are right, you will throw your arm round my shoulder and we will celebrate together [we have a winery just 1.5 kilometre down the road, they also make cider] .... [Snip]

A winery just 1500 meters down the road ... what's the address? I'll factor a visit into our next trip! I hope the cellar door prices are competitive. :wink

I hope I have sown the seeds of some doubts about the conventional AGW wisdom; incidentally, on our travels (and I meant to mention this in my last post), we find the great majority of older Western folk we speak to think climate change is natural.
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Re: The renewed Climate Debate 2-10-09

Postby grandduke » 23/07/10 9:26

Here is a start moving away from coal fired
power stations to gas, its a start.

http://www.originenergy.com.au/2081/Dar ... er-Station :- :-
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Re: The renewed Climate Debate 2-10-09

Postby godfather » 23/07/10 20:33

Good one, el Duco, we want more of those or clean coal to keep us warm/cool and alive!

:handgestures-thumbsupright: :handgestures-thumbsupright: :handgestures-thumbsupright:
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Re: The renewed Climate Debate 2-10-09

Postby donander » 24/07/10 9:59

grandduke wrote:Here is a start moving away from coal fired power stations to gas, its a start.
http://www.originenergy.com.au/2081/Dar ... er-Station :- :-

It's almost worth a trip out there to have a look. There is a viewing area with signboards that give a good description of the plant.
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Re: The renewed Climate Debate 2-10-09

Postby grandduke » 29/07/10 9:56

And we have this, so, where does Australia stand
in the back ground as usual, see the countries
involved here.


Deal reached on nuclear fusion funding

Posted 6 hours 20 minutes ago

The European Union and six states backing a multi-billion-dollar nuclear fusion project say they have reached a deal on the financing and timetable for the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor (ITER).

An explosion in costs had cast a cloud over the reactor, which aims to make the nuclear fusion process that fuels the sun.

ITER, based at Cadarache in southern France, was set up by the EU, which has a 45 percent share, China, India, South Korea, Japan, Russia and the US to research a clean and limitless alternative to dwindling fossil fuel reserves.

ITER's governing council reached the deal after a two-day meeting in Cadarache at which Europe pledged to provide additional financing of a maximum $9.5 billion, it said in a statement.

Nuclear fusion entails forcing together the nuclei of light atomic elements in a super-heated plasma, held in a doughnut-shaped chamber called a tokamak, so that they make heavier elements and in so doing release energy.

"We are now entering a decisive phase in the ITER project," said Evgeny Velikhov of the ITER governing council.

8-[ 8-[ 8-[ :- :- :-
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Re: The renewed Climate Debate 2-10-09

Postby grandduke » 29/07/10 10:02

And this is it, climate change what climate change. :sleeping-yellow: :sleeping-yellow:

http://www.iter.org/proj
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Re: The renewed Climate Debate 2-10-09

Postby godfather » 29/07/10 22:11

Thanks el Duco, fascinating site. If you dig into that website, you'll be amazed of the size of the project. Just massive.
When the first reactor is completed it will produce between 2,000 - 4,000 MW of power. Unbelievable!

=D>
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Re: The renewed Climate Debate 2-10-09

Postby donander » 29/07/10 22:26

Australia will be involved: K Rudd will probably oversee the project from his office in New York. O:)
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Re: The renewed Climate Debate 2-10-09

Postby godfather » 30/07/10 21:38

I very much doubt it, donander, he is sitting pretty for a better job than that! :biggrin:
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Re: The renewed Climate Debate 2-10-09

Postby donander » 31/07/10 0:13

The office I meant had "Secretary General United Nations" on the door. :handgestures-thumbsupright:
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Re: The renewed Climate Debate 2-10-09

Postby godfather » 31/07/10 21:44

Aaaaarrrrrrkkkkkkkkk, NO!

No, not our Kevin, please. I would not believe that for one moment.

I have nothing against the fellow but I do not agree that he is suitable or has the qualifications for such a demanding job.
I would trust him with a major portfolio involved with Climate Change or even organising a garden party for Mugabe, but thats all!

:biggrin:
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Re: The renewed Climate Debate 2-10-09

Postby donander » 31/07/10 22:45

godfather wrote:Aaaaarrrrrrkkkkkkkkk, NO! [Snip] I would trust him with a major portfolio involved with Climate Change or even organising a garden party for Mugabe, but thats all! :biggrin:

Ok, I second the Mugabe motion. :handgestures-thumbsupright:
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