Over populated

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mavisbramston
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Over populated

Post by mavisbramston » 07 Mar 2018, 11:41

Its a rather thorny topin and we could argue all day about whether or not we are becoming over populated. Of course that should not mean we cannot discuss it.
As a Green I make no appology for expressing a concern for the loss of wild life and their habitat. I am disappointed the Greens party are so hell bent on immigration. To be fair they have let me have my say at meetings.
Regardless of where you stand on immigration one thing is clear. We do not have the infastructure to support the massive increases. Lack of good public transport, roads, the drive home has become terrible for many.
No one cares about over population. We are still trapped in the fifties cliche of populate or perish.
Today Government listens to wealthy developers destroying habitat and killing off our previous wild life.
I want the Greens to be Green again.

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Perrorist
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Re: Over populated

Post by Perrorist » 07 Mar 2018, 14:59

This is the official policy: https://greens.org.au/policies/immigration-refugees

Not all Greens agree with it -- I'm one -- because of the detrimental effects on infrastructure and the environment. I believe in caps on annual numbers that are consistent with our capacity to support the extra load. However, there will be exceptional circumstances, so we shouldn't be too rigid about numbers. Otherwise I think the Greens policies are humanitarian and achievable.

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Dreamweaver
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Re: Over populated

Post by Dreamweaver » 07 Mar 2018, 17:19

The whole world is overpopulated. I feel Australia needs to be part of a world wide policy to educate on, and encourage, birth control. As people in poorly developed countries without social welfare can rely on large families in the hope that enough offspring survive to care for them in old age, so Australia should be concerned with a universal welfare system. Assured of a sustainable future these people would feel more comfortable with smaller families.

Australia once relied on importing expertise in professions. But now our tertiary educational training is recognised as some of the world's best, why are we importing doctors etc instead of training more of our own? Surely then we would open our arms to the true asylum seekers who are in real need.

It is wonderful that the Greens have continued to grow and flourish, but for how long? Other worthies like the Australian Democrats seemed to be on the rise for a while, and Sustainable Australia is taking attention too. I expect Greens do look at and note such policies.
https://www.australian-democrats.org.au/policies/
https://www.sustainableaustralia.org.au ... m_seekers/
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Perrorist
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Re: Over populated

Post by Perrorist » 07 Mar 2018, 18:51

The problem is war. The great wave of refugees in recent years is due to the wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan. Hundreds of thousands have been forced to flee. The countries responsible for attacking them have been the most reluctant to take them in: the US, Australia, UK, and so on, yet they bear the most responsibility.

We can pick and choose economic migrants, but we have a moral responsibility towards those we have been complicit in displacing to accept them.

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Re: Over populated

Post by mavisbramston » 07 Mar 2018, 20:45

I love this site. The fact one can discuss anything (within reason) and not getting attacked. Thx guys ..love to read more comments on this issue

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Re: Over populated

Post by mavisbramston » 10 Mar 2018, 08:21

Perrorist wrote:
07 Mar 2018, 14:59
This is the official policy: https://greens.org.au/policies/immigration-refugees

Not all Greens agree with it -- I'm one -- because of the detrimental effects on infrastructure and the environment. I believe in caps on annual numbers that are consistent with our capacity to support the extra load. However, there will be exceptional circumstances, so we shouldn't be too rigid about numbers. Otherwise I think the Greens policies are humanitarian and achievable.
I agree with you. I am very disappointed with the immigration policy of the party. I believe we must not keep populating without considering the terrible impact it has on wild life habitat. I dont think we should be attacked if we queston it. I must say that at our meetings people are very civil and they do listen. We must keep putting forward our reasons but at the same time avoid the Hansenlike race card.

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Re: Over populated

Post by Perrorist » 10 Mar 2018, 09:12

Quite right. Nor should it have to do with how people arrive in Australia.

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terra
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Re: Over populated

Post by terra » 11 Mar 2018, 09:20

How does ethnic population rate in crime in Sydney ?

Is it just me or is almost every drive by shooting these days involve people born outside Australia ?

You never hear the perpetrators name being a simple "John Smith"...... generally it's an exotic name.

.....as Buck would say, "just sayin' :twocents-mytwocents:
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Re: Over populated

Post by Dreamweaver » 11 Mar 2018, 09:42

There are increasing numbers of exotic names in Australia as 2nd and 3rd generations of immigrants are born here. But there could well be a higher rate of crime among migrant youth, or indeed our own indigenous youth. We aren't likely to find out, as the effort seems more to address the causes rather than villify, which often worsens the situation. Any kid subjected to physical trauma, government discrimination, or cultural prejudice, is more likely to go off the rails than one brought up in safety, security, and acceptance.

That's how Australia was creating criminals with our Nauru debacle.
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terra
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Re: Over populated

Post by terra » 11 Mar 2018, 10:13

Strange how in Australia, we have no problem in reporting that Indiginous Australians are over-represented in prison population by comparison to actual percentage of general population.

"Aboriginal prison rates
Aboriginal people are massively overrepresented in the criminal justice system of Australia. They represent only 3% of the total population, yet more than 28% of Australia’s prison population are Aboriginal."

Source:. https://www.creativespirits.info/aborig ... ison-rates

.......and yet we seem afraid to speak out and say that ethnics are over represented in crime figures ?
.....for that matter, are such records kept ?
or is that taboo to do so ?
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Perrorist
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Re: Over populated

Post by Perrorist » 11 Mar 2018, 11:17

The media tends not to bother so much with crimes committed by "Australians", i.e. Anglos. This was pointed out recently in Melbourne where African gangs got a lot of publicity by Dutton, before the Commissioner of Police ridiculed his statement, but that's how Dutton and his ilk operate. Scare the natives and they'll support you. There were no gangs, even though Africans did misbehave in ad hoc groups.

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Re: Over populated

Post by Perrorist » 11 Mar 2018, 11:24


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terra
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Re: Over populated

Post by terra » 11 Mar 2018, 13:05

Yeah.... I understand that Perry, but without sounding like I'm "ethnic bashing", you cannot ignore what is !

I dare you or anyone else to keep a diary or record of sorts, to ALL drive-by shootings in Sydney for the next few weeks..... as reported on media such as TV, radio and newspapers, and keep score of how many offenders are natural Australian citizens and how many are of ethnic origin.

No use hiding our heads in the sand and pretend it ain't happening ! :twocents-mytwocents:
"Life's too short to drink cheap wine".

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Perrorist
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Re: Over populated

Post by Perrorist » 11 Mar 2018, 13:20

"as reported" - that's the problem. I'd far sooner get my figures from an official source.

Besides, as DW said, the names don't tell you whether they're native born or if they're immigrants.

Anyway, here on the Central Coast, most crime is committed by Anglos, assuming I go by their names only.

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terra
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Re: Over populated

Post by terra » 11 Mar 2018, 13:30

This article as reported by Detective Superintendent Deb Wallace, who heads the Middle Eastern Organised Crime Squad in the NSW Police. is twelve months old but makes for interesting reading.

SOURCE: https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/i ... 1520735062

Old cultural loyalties no longer apply. "It's strictly business," says Detective Superintendent Deb Wallace, who heads the Middle Eastern Organised Crime Squad in the NSW Police.

The shift challenges the traditional methods of defining and investigating organised crime. Small poses this hypothetical: "We have a Vietnamese importer selling to bikies who are made up of Middle Eastern crime figures, Caucasians, Calabrians, and they're dealing with firearms, drugs and murder. What squad investigates that?"

Since the 1970s and 80s, ethnic crime waves have come and gone.

In the 70s Italian organised crime erupted in the public spotlight with the murder of anti-drugs campaigner Donald Mackay in Griffith, NSW, and the Woodward royal commission. In the 80s Vietnamese gangs terrorised their own community for a decade before their members were killed, arrested, grew up or moved on to more sophisticated types of crime.

These days the focus of attention is Middle Eastern crime, principally in southwestern Sydney.

In each case, police say it is not the groups' ethnicity but their propensity for violence that has put them on the radar.

"We don't target the Middle Eastern community, we target criminals in that community, especially if they are using violence," Wallace says. "There are many other groups who are more sophisticated and established, like the triads, who are not committing violence. It's the same all over the world - Israeli crime, Russian crime - there are all sorts of groups that don't come to notice and that's because they're not on the streets shooting each other."

The Middle Eastern crime wave broke on the streets of Sydney in the 90s as rival Lebanese gangs involved in drug dealing, extortion, car theft and re-birthing grew out of control.

Like the Asian gangs of the 80s, Lebanese crime "reflected migration trends" of the day, Wallace says. "The Middle Eastern community is exactly like the Asian community. The majority are fantastic, hardworking, passionate. It's the few criminals within that group [that put] the focus on the whole community."

Also like the Vietnamese gangs, Lebanese crime sprang up among a community of mostly refugees from a war-ravaged society whose citizens had lost faith in police, government and the law.

The Lebanese refugees who fled to Australia were mostly peasants and labourers, with poor education and little or no English. They retained strong ties to their homeland, where many had family, owned property and could still vote, leaving them less inclined to consider Australia home.

Michael Humphrey from the department of sociology at the University of Sydney says the issues in the community were exacerbated by a "culture of masculinity". "Middle Eastern cultures are very patriarchal and masculine, [based on] the idea of being strong men. There is a theory that men become weak in migration, diminished, with less power and less control over their women. This leads to a loss of masculinity, authority and control." As a result, "violence can be an act of self liberation, the remaking of the self".

In 2003 police set up Task Force Gain to investigate Middle Eastern gang crime. In a year it made 1069 arrests, laid 2384 charges and seized drugs worth $3.5m. The taskforce was taken over by MEOCS in 2006.

Public disquiet over Middle Eastern crime was exacerbated by the climate of fear following the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, and the uproar in 2001-02 over the highly publicised gang rapes in Sydney by two Lebanese brothers.

Amid the furore, in 2002 the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research (BOCSAR) began compiling information on the ethnicity of accused criminals, to try to prove or disprove the public perception that Lebanese Australians were disproportionately involved in crime.

BOCSAR director Don Weatherburn says it proved impossible to compile comprehensive figures because the arresting police often didn't ask the question and many detainees refused to answer it.

"The best we ever got was about 80 per cent. We took the view that with 20 to 30 per cent missing, there was no basis for comparing [crime] rates across different groups." The experiment was abandoned after a year.

However, data collected by the Australian Bureau of Statistics shows that Lebanese make up the fifth largest ethnic group in Australian prisons after Australians, New Zealanders, Vietnamese and British and Irish, with 226 Lebanese prisoners last year accounting for 0.75 per cent of all detainees held for serious crimes.

Per head of population, Lebanese-born people had the seventh highest rate of imprisonment (after Samoans, Tongans, Sudanese, Vietnamese, Romanians and Indonesians).

However, the practice of targeting criminals by ethnicity remains contentious and is rejected by other police forces.

In 2008, there was a series of shootings, bashings, abductions and extortions in the Lebanese community in Melbourne. The following year, a member of a well-known Lebanese crime family was killed in a drive-by shooting in the city's western suburbs. Despite this, Victoria Police have maintained a policy that opposes "ethnic branding" of crime. "We don't have a Lebanese problem," crime department Superintendent Gerard Ryan told AAP. "We are a cosmopolitan community in Melbourne where most people get on extremely well."

The Victoria Police Association claims the force is in denial about ethnically based crime and is pushing for the return of ethnic units such as the state's Asian crime squad, which was disbanded in 2006.

"It's quite clear Victoria sees itself as the Australian heartland of multiculturalism and [targeting ethnic groups] is seen as politically incorrect, which is pretty pathetic when you're fighting crime," association secretary Greg Davies says. "These ethnically based crime squads, like the Asian squad in the past, had extraordinarily good results in cleaning up organised crime. It's created a vacuum of intelligence on particular groups. It's not easy to infiltrate any organised crime group, and once it's done it's a vitally important crime fighting tool to maintain."

However, the fast evolving nature of organised criminality challenges the argument for ethnically based squads.

The head of the NSW Police Asian Crime Squad, Detective Superintendent Scott Cook, says there is no doubt the old boundaries between ethnic crime groups are crumbling, especially in the drug trade. "That's the biggest change in organised crime. Traditionally they stayed with their own cultural groups; now they're dealing with bikies, Middle Easterners, Caucasians, whoever wants to buy the drugs."

Says Small: "If you have squads of this type you have to constantly review the need for their existence. As we've seen with the Vietnamese street gangs, they were at their zenith in the 1990s and a decade later we hardly hear anything of them."

Wallace hopes Lebanese crime will go the same way. "History repeats itself. Maybe in 10 years we won't have a Middle Eastern crime squad because the community will have resolved its issues and determined that this behaviour is not acceptable."

But if there's one thing police have learned from experience, it's that as one ethnic group moves off their radar, another will take its place, as new manifestations of the same problem emerge.

The latest migrant community to be troubled by crime and violence is the Sudanese, who have arrived in Australia in their thousands in recent years. The pattern is much the same: refugees from a war-torn country, brutalised and destitute, transplanted in a foreign land where they struggle to grasp the language, culture, social mores and laws. The issue emerged in 2007 when immigration minister Kevin Andrews announced he was cutting the intake of refugees from northeast Africa because of "undesirable behaviour". This followed the bashing death of a Sudanese teenager in suburban Noble Park in Melbourne and reports of gangs forming, public drunkenness and violence.

Victoria's then police commissioner Christine Nixon denied there was a problem, although Vicpol's statistics suggested young Sudanese were being arrested at roughly four times the average rate. The ABS report Prisoners in Australia shows that last year Sudanese had the third highest imprisonment rate (after Samoans and Tongans) of any nationality.

Similar concerns were voiced in South Australia in 2008, when deputy police commissioner Gary Burns said his force faced "an emerging, probably contemporary, policing issue", with 450 offences having been committed by 93 members of a Sudanese community numbering 1500 in the space of 16 months.

Criminologists say that, like previous ethnic crime spikes, this one reflects a systemic lack of social, economic and logistical support for vulnerable new arrivals.

"If we're going to take migrants from diverse backgrounds we have a moral obligation to support them as much as possible," says Paul Wilson, head of criminology at Bond University.

Amid the claims and counter-claims about crime and multiculturalism, police report a success story at Blacktown in western Sydney, an ethnically diverse community with 180 nationalities, including about 2000 Sudanese.

Superintendent Mark Wright, the local area commander, says there is no crime problem among the local Sudanese. Reports of gangs forming turned out to be simply groups of young men hanging out in public, conspicuous because they are tall, black, physically imposing and often loud.

Wright says Blacktown has avoided the problems experienced elsewhere by forging strong relationships with community leaders, and working with local business and charities to deliver employment opportunities, training, sports and social programs for the new arrivals.

"My focus has always been on helping them integrate," Wright says. "Our focus is to not isolate them through the programs we deliver because I think it sends the wrong message. They hear from us regularly that it's not a racial problem, it's not cultural, it's about youth issues and integrating into the community."

The keys, he says, are mutual respect and joint responsibility. "You've got to be open with people and say: 'You're welcome here, but you've got to make an effort to fit in as well.' "

So far, it seems to be working.

"Life's too short to drink cheap wine".

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