Those kids

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mavisbramston
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Those kids

Post by mavisbramston » 24 Apr 2018, 16:48

When I read and saw what those teenage kids had done in destroying flowers and wreaths at Anzac Memorial in BoxHill I was full of rage. I found myself shouting things like name them and shame them.
I have settled down and recall kids do stupid things.
There has never been much respect for tradition and authority.
Before we carryon its important to recall we were not much better, we might think we were but no matter how often we declare things like. In my Day... its not so.
Still this did disgust me...

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Dreamweaver
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Re: Those kids

Post by Dreamweaver » 24 Apr 2018, 22:22

My grandson is a respected and respectful adviser to important clients. As a teenager he and mates visited a friends house while the parents were out, and got stuck into the drinks cabinet. As well as the damage to carpets etc there, they went out vandalising.

Thankfully he hasn't had a drink since!
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kfchugo
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Re: Those kids

Post by kfchugo » 24 Apr 2018, 22:51

At what stage do we cease to coddle young offenders and stop making excuses for their criminal behavior. A teenager might get drunk and urinate on a neighbours front door ..... poor taste, but a hose off and an apology will fix it. Not so however with vandalism,violence, disrespect, theft and other offences against society. We used to excuse offenders who had a tough upbringing or who were affected by drugs or alcohol, but we now realise that these factors were merely excuses. Everyone (even young offenders) must take responsibility for their actions and suffer their consequences - how else will they learn? We dont persecute the mentally ill, because mostly they cannot distinguish between right and wrong - EVERYONE else can.
Police have a very apt truism....."If you cant do the time.....dont do the crime". Personally, I am sick to death of offenders having more rights and consideration than their victims.

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Perrorist
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Re: Those kids

Post by Perrorist » 25 Apr 2018, 06:35

Below the age of ten a person is considered unable to understand criminality. From the age of 10 and until turning 14, there is a reduced capacity (in law, this is known as doli incapax) and it's up to the prosecution to show that the child understood what they were doing was wrong.

There are circumstances where young people can be affected by their upbringing. Absentee parents and poor school attendance for example. The lack of discipline and care early on can have deleterious long term consequences. Much depends on the kid's personality and intelligence. Society and culture do have an influence. A good example is the lack of graffiti and vandalism you see in some East Asian countries.

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kfchugo
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Re: Those kids

Post by kfchugo » 25 Apr 2018, 07:04

I agree with most of what you are saying Perry, but the fact remains that young offenders do understand what they are doing and know they are committing crimes. Their childhood may have been unfortunate or even damaging but that does not give them any right to inflict their anger on society. I think you will find the absence of graffiti in many Asian nations is the result of community intolerance to it, policing and fairly draconian punishment. Singapore, for example, is quite fond of caning.

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Perrorist
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Re: Those kids

Post by Perrorist » 25 Apr 2018, 08:38

In Japan, I travelled on trains where numerous loose paper ads hung from the ceiling. Not one had been torn down. Inconceivable on a Sydney train. The reason is cultural: the Japanese regard themselves as a community where respect is second nature.

Here in Australia we're conditioned to believing individuals are more important than the state. Therefore communal property is not seen as belonging to us but to "others". It creates disassociation and disrespect.

mavisbramston
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Re: Those kids

Post by mavisbramston » 25 Apr 2018, 08:40

Emotionally there is apart of me agreeing with you kfhugo. My fantasy punishment would be not allowing them to drive for ten years. :character-oldtimer:

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Warrigal
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Re: Those kids

Post by Warrigal » 25 Apr 2018, 10:40

Shame them by all means, then teach them why the act was shameful.

I remember when the RSL did this for one particular boy who played aa significant part in the reaction to the Cronulla riots in 2005. The ex diggers thought it was important to redeem the boy and that is exactly what happened. After he spent time in juvenile detention they reached out to him.
At the height of the Cronulla race riots a 16-year old Muslim boy climbed the local RSL club's flagpole and threw the Australian flag down to his mates. They spat and urinated on it before setting it ablaze. The boy, Ali Ammar, was charged and penalised for his actions, and later apologised. His remorse was real and so touched RSL State President Don Rowe he invited him to carry a flag at the ANZAC Day march. All hell broke loose for a second time. RSL members were outraged. The shock-jocks had a field day. The offer was withdrawn, but another remarkable plan was hatched to allow the boy to say sorry publicly and to experience first-hand why the Australian flag is so important for so many: Ali Ammar would walk across the legendary Kokoda track.

http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s1973902.htm
If you don't have an ASIO file by now then you should be ashamed of yourself.

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Perrorist
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Re: Those kids

Post by Perrorist » 25 Apr 2018, 11:08

We should never forget that punishment has more than one facet. Retribution tends to be uppermost in most people's thoughts, but punishment is also intended to reform, as well as protect society and deter others from committing the same crime. If an offender returns to society in the same frame of mind that preceded the offence, then punishment has fallen short of its purpose.

I'm not in favour of fixed or minimum terms for various crimes. Sentencing is a difficult process to get right even for experienced judiciary, but they're best placed to fit the punishment to the crime.

One of the welcome reforms that took place a while back has been allowing victim impact statements to be read in court before sentencing. Those who have read their statements in court say they feel better as a result. The statements also help the court get a better understanding of the crime and may influence sentencing, particularly for compensation and other remedies.

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Warrigal
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Re: Those kids

Post by Warrigal » 25 Apr 2018, 12:10

On the subject of the flag. My father always said that it is impossible to dishonour flag; you can only disgrace it.
He served in the New Guinea campaign and two of his brothers were killed in 1942 so his words on this subject are meaningful.

In some way the same thinking applies to the act of destruction of the wreaths and flowers. In no way is the honour of the dead affected by these idiots but the disgrace is on their heads. They need to feel their disgrace.
If you don't have an ASIO file by now then you should be ashamed of yourself.

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Slapsy
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Re: Those kids

Post by Slapsy » 25 Apr 2018, 17:11

Without even attempting to defend this juvenile act,we should all remember that we were also young once. Honestly,how many can now say,in hindsight,that they did nothing in their youth,that they are now ashamed of?
The punters know that the horse called Morality rarely gets past the post,whereas the nag called Self-interest always runs a good race. ..... Gough Whitlam 19/10/89

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Perrorist
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Re: Those kids

Post by Perrorist » 25 Apr 2018, 17:39

I'm unwilling to list my past indiscretions. They were many and various, and some attracted police attention. My headmaster said to me once that I would either be very successful or end up in prison. I managed to avoid court appearances, I'm pleased to say. One of my brothers was not so fortunate.

mavisbramston
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Re: Those kids

Post by mavisbramston » 25 Apr 2018, 19:04

Wonderful logical posts everyone. I am a bit emotional on this one.

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Buck_naked
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Re: Those kids

Post by Buck_naked » 25 Apr 2018, 19:10

two maggots stole a car crashed into and killed two people then ran off, a few days ago.
Bring on President Duterte, shoot 'em on sight. :character-oldtimer: :character-oldtimer:

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Dreamweaver
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Re: Those kids

Post by Dreamweaver » 25 Apr 2018, 21:29

Punishment for bad behaviour and reward for good behaviour seems to work, but only if the punishment is enough to scare them without branding them, which causes them to take on that role of 'bad guy'.

Of course it takes the wisdom of Solomon to know what it takes to scare very different kids just the most effective amount.
And once they have gone as far as being proud of being labeled 'bad guy', everything changes again.
Not simple.
I dream, therefore I am.

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