Islam - religion of peace, love and tolerance

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kfchugo
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Islam - religion of peace, love and tolerance

Post by kfchugo » 08 Nov 2018, 13:21

For those who believe in the thread title, just look at what is happening in Pakistan. A young Christian woman involved in an altercation about drinking from a cup spoke a few words in anger. She supposedly insulted the "prophet", long dead and completely oblivious to such insults. Now, even though acquitted by the courts, Islamists are still demanding her execution. Moreover, they are petitioning the courts to bar her from leaving Pakistan, supposedly so they can get at her some time in the future. It seems that eight years in prison on "death row" is not sufficient to atone for these few words spoken in anger.
These primitive zealots have no place in the modern world, nor does the draconian dogma of this religion. For example, rejecting Islam and converting to another religion carries the death penalty. Until the leaders and Imams of Islam can get their act together and reform the religion and drag it into the 21st century, It simply cannot be afforded respect nor taken seriously as a religion - much as I hate to quote Tony Abbott, it really is a "death cult".

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Re: Islam - religion of peace, love and tolerance

Post by Perrorist » 08 Nov 2018, 14:59

It's not Islam but tribalism that gives rise to this behaviour. It's so easy, and there's plenty of evidence of Christians doing it too, to use scripture to justify extremism. I wish there was something Australia could do to help this unfortunate woman, but I can't imagine anyone in our government having the lease interest in the matter.

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Re: Islam - religion of peace, love and tolerance

Post by Dreamweaver » 08 Nov 2018, 20:32

Jesus was a Jew, there was no such thing as Christianity in his lifetime. The introduction of Islam was in order to concentrate on the teachings of Jesus rather than other Jewish sects. It included peace, love and tolerance. When speaking of Jesus, Muslims always add the words "Peace be unto him". (or pbuh.) They regard him, not Muhammad, as the last true prophet, and Muhammad as God's messenger.

It is true some Muslims don't really know much about Islam. It is true some Christians don't really know much about Christianity. It is true that there are many followers of the teachings of Jesus who do not regard him as a particular Son of God, but as someone worthy of reverence.

https://www.vox.com/2017/12/18/10660648 ... tmas-quran
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Re: Islam - religion of peace, love and tolerance

Post by Perrorist » 08 Nov 2018, 20:46

In my experience, the more uneducated tend to favour literalism. It's simpler to understand.

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Re: Islam - religion of peace, love and tolerance

Post by Teddy » 15 Nov 2018, 16:17

Dreamweaver wrote:
08 Nov 2018, 20:32
Jesus was a Jew, there was no such thing as Christianity in his lifetime. The introduction of Islam was in order to concentrate on the teachings of Jesus rather than other Jewish sects. It included peace, love and tolerance. When speaking of Jesus, Muslims always add the words "Peace be unto him". (or pbuh.) They regard him, not Muhammad, as the last true prophet, and Muhammad as God's messenger.

It is true some Muslims don't really know much about Islam. It is true some Christians don't really know much about Christianity. It is true that there are many followers of the teachings of Jesus who do not regard him as a particular Son of God, but as someone worthy of reverence.

https://www.vox.com/2017/12/18/10660648 ... tmas-quran
DW Islam was founded in 610 A D by Muhammad in Mecca,he claimed to be the prophet of Allah who revealed the Koran
Also worth noting is the qur'anic statements with regards to the Christian Trinity. It writes that those who believe in God as triune &Jesus as God, are unbelievers & belong to hell(Christians) Q5:17,73:9:29-30;66:9
DW In Genesis chapter 1,the first book of the Bible (The Old Testament) Jesus is there. The plurality of persons in the Godhead,Father,Son and Holy Ghost

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Re: Islam - religion of peace, love and tolerance

Post by Perrorist » 15 Nov 2018, 16:21

Jesus is not mentioned in Genesis.

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Re: Islam - religion of peace, love and tolerance

Post by Dreamweaver » 15 Nov 2018, 19:27

Perrorist wrote:
15 Nov 2018, 16:21
Jesus is not mentioned in Genesis.
Not under the name "Jesus', but there are those who say "this refers to him" or "that refers to him." It is pointless to trade scriptural interpretations, as there are those who take the words literally, those who see deeper meaning, those who believe the 'fallible' writers' own beliefs coloured the divine message, those who believe there are errors in translation, those who believe there were later insertions added to justify beliefs, and so on. It is pointless because "one convinced against their will is of the same opinion still."
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Re: Islam - religion of peace, love and tolerance

Post by Teddy » 15 Nov 2018, 19:28

No the name Jesus is not mentioned. He is there, one of the Holy Trinity, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

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Re: Islam - religion of peace, love and tolerance

Post by Dreamweaver » 15 Nov 2018, 20:04

Teddy wrote:
15 Nov 2018, 16:17
DW Islam was founded in 610 A D by Muhammad in Mecca,he claimed to be the prophet of Allah who revealed the Koran
Also worth noting is the qur'anic statements with regards to the Christian Trinity. It writes that those who believe in God as triune &Jesus as God, are unbelievers & belong to hell(Christians) Q5:17,73:9:29-30;66:9
DW In Genesis chapter 1,the first book of the Bible (The Old Testament) Jesus is there. The plurality of persons in the Godhead,Father,Son and Holy Ghost
My apologies Teddy, Muhammad was indeed considered as the last prophet by Muslims, I was quoting some particular Muslim friends, but as I said before not all know a great deal, and sects do differ.

Did you get to read https://www.vox.com/2017/12/18/10660648 ... tmas-quran ?
Another link you might like is in wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam
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Re: Islam - religion of peace, love and tolerance

Post by Perrorist » 15 Nov 2018, 20:45

Teddy wrote:
15 Nov 2018, 19:28
No the name Jesus is not mentioned. He is there, one of the Holy Trinity, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
There's no mention of the Trinity either. That's a New Testament concept. It's best to think of the Old Testament as a collection of chronicles describing the history of the tribes of Israel, whereas the New Testament provides the origin and dissemination of the Christian message.

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Re: Islam - religion of peace, love and tolerance

Post by Teddy » 16 Nov 2018, 20:20

The word Trinity does not occur in the New or Old Testament. It describes the oneness of God, the Father, Son & Holy Spirit However it can be discerned in the Old Testament
At creation, the words "in the beginning God created the heavens & earth, followed by "the Spirit of God hovering over the Waters" Genesis 1-1-2,indicate a Trinity at work. Later when creating man, "Let, us make man in our image"
Isaiah wrote of the declarations of Yahweh,the Sovereign Lord ch 40-50 & in verses 48-16 we read' "And now The Sovereign Lord has sent me with His Spirit"
In Messianic prophecy quoted by Jesus himself, we read, "The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me" These & others indicate a Trinity.
If we want to know Christ, it is to the Bible we must turn. For the Bible is God's own portrait of Christ.

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Re: Islam - religion of peace, love and tolerance

Post by kfchugo » 16 Nov 2018, 20:44

That is quite a stretch of interpretation, Teddy - still, you are entitled to your opinion. The BIG problem with ALL religions these days is the firmly entrenched beliefs of some who then look to vague or obscure biblical or historical references to validate their already established beliefs. Sensible people believe as they choose and leave others to do likewise but unfortunately there are the zealous few who would kill those of us who fail to share there beliefs.
I do respect the faith and beliefs of others even while I dont share them.

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Re: Islam - religion of peace, love and tolerance

Post by Perrorist » 16 Nov 2018, 21:27

:good_one

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Re: Islam - religion of peace, love and tolerance

Post by Dreamweaver » 16 Nov 2018, 22:07

But that's not all! There's more! (Isn't that what the salesman says?) In that language there are two words for us, (or we.) One means 'the two of us'. The other means 'the three or more of us.' There can be some very interesting arguments springing from this, but I don't believe religion should be a point of argument. God (whoever or what ever that is) is supposed to be all-wise, all-powerful and everywhere present, yet give us free will to grow, learn, mature - as a parent would a child. And therefor would surely make provision for differing concepts, different cultures, different beliefs and understandings. I would not want to change anyone's belief unless our 'God-given' global sense of good and bad, the universal acceptance of treating others with the respect we would wish for ourselves, is in anyway negated.
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Re: Islam - religion of peace, love and tolerance

Post by Dreamweaver » 10 Jan 2019, 00:28

Just saw this today!
Jesus and the Bible
Midrash
Monday, January 7, 2019

More than telling us exactly what to see in the Scriptures, Jesus taught us how to see, what to emphasize, and also what could be de-emphasized or ignored. Beyond fundamentalism or literalism, Jesus practiced a form that the Jewish people called midrash, consistently using questions to keep spiritual meanings open, often reflecting on a text or returning people’s questions with more questions. It is a real shame that we did not imitate Jesus in this approach. It could have saved us from so many centuries of righteousness, religious violence, and even single-issue voting.

Rather than seeking always certain and unchanging answers, the Jewish practice of midrash allows many possibilities, many levels of faith-filled meaning—meaning that is relevant and applicable to you, the reader, and puts you in the subject’s shoes to build empathy, understanding, and relationship. It lets the passage first challenge you before it challenges anyone else. To use the text in a spiritual way—as Jesus did—is to allow it to convert you, to change you, to grow you up as you respond: What does this ask of me? How might this apply to my life, to my family, to my church, to my neighborhood, to my country?

While biblical messages often proceed from historical incidents, the actual message does not depend upon communicating those events with perfect factual accuracy. Spiritual writers are not primarily journalists. Hebrew rabbis and scholars sometimes use the approach of midrash to reflect on a story and communicate all of its underlying message. Scripture can be understood on at least four levels: literal meaning, deep meaning, comparative meaning, and hidden meaning.

The literal level of meaning doesn’t get to the root and, in fact, is the least helpful to the soul and the most dangerous for history. Deep meaning offers symbolic or allegorical applications. Comparative study combines different texts to explore an entirely new meaning. Finally, in traditional Jewish exegesis, hidden meaning gets at the Mystery itself. Midrash allows and encourages each listener to grow with a text and not to settle for mere literalism, which, of itself, bears little spiritual fruit. It is just a starting point.

Whatever is received is received according to the manner of the receiver. [1] This statement from Aquinas was drilled into me during seminary. People at different levels of maturity will interpret the same text in different ways. There is no one right way to interpret sacred texts. How you see is what you see; the who that you bring to your reading of the Scriptures matters. Who are you when you read the Bible? Defensive, offensive, power-hungry, righteous? Or humble, receptive, and honest? Surely, this is why we need to pray before reading a sacred text!

Jesus consistently ignored or even denied exclusionary, punitive, and triumphalist texts in his own inspired Hebrew Bible in favor of passages that emphasized inclusion, mercy, and honesty. For example, referencing two passages from Exodus (21:24) and Leviticus (24:20), Jesus suggested the opposite: “You have heard it said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you . . . turn the other cheek” (see Matthew 5:38-39). He read the Scriptures in a spiritual, selective, and questioning way. Jesus had a deeper and wider eye that knew which passages were creating a path for God and which passages were merely cultural, self-serving, and legalistic additions.

References:
[1] Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, I, 75, 5. Original sentence: Quidquid recipitur ad modum recipientis recipitur.
https://cac.org/midrash-2019-01-07/
Jesus often uses what appear to be non-Jewish or non-canonical sources, or at least sources scholars cannot verify. For example, “It is not the healthy who need the doctor, but the sick do,” or the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. His bandwidth of authority and attention is much wider than “sola Scriptura.” —Richard Rohr
I dream, therefore I am.

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