Kashoggi killing

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kfchugo
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Kashoggi killing

Post by kfchugo » 13 Nov 2018, 12:56

By now, anyone with an ounce of grey matter between their ears would have realised that this murder was orchestrated and authorised by the Saudi crown prince "MBS". Yet, the Saudis are fighting tooth and nail to come up with any flimsy excuse to get him off the hook. While I would not dare to predict the outcome of all this, it is frightening to think that a known murderer might become ruler of a modern and militarily sophisticated country. Although, God knows, it wouldnt be the first time in history.

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Re: Kashoggi killing

Post by Biggdad » 13 Nov 2018, 15:11


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Re: Kashoggi killing

Post by kfchugo » 13 Nov 2018, 16:15

That report is pretty comprehensive BigDad, however it does not "finger" who actually ordered the killing. So far, nobody has come out and directly accused the Saudi Crown prince. The Turkey president has come closest saying the order came from "the highest level of the Saudi Government" while at the same time asserting his belief that King Salman had no knowledge of it. Who does that leave holding the bag? :yeah_right

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Re: Kashoggi killing

Post by Biggdad » 13 Nov 2018, 22:32

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/10/ ... 42286.html


This is the easiest way to pass on the latest information! :character-oldtimer:

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Re: Kashoggi killing

Post by kfchugo » 14 Nov 2018, 12:46

Thanks BD.....an interesting read.

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Re: Kashoggi killing

Post by kfchugo » 16 Nov 2018, 20:11

I see that the Saudi Public Prosecutor has determined that the Koshoggi murder was ordered by a senior intelligence officer and that the Crown Prince had no prior knowledge of the crime. Was there ever any doubt that this would be the case? He also stated that the agents sent to Turkey were actually there to persuade Koshoggi to return to Saudi Arabia voluntarily but when he refused, they decided to kill him.
This flies in the face of already established facts that the murder was premeditated and well planned. The Saudi's just keep doing backflips and shooting their credibilty in the foot. Trump is now also being seen as actively trying to get the Crown Prince off the hook. It seems that justice takes a back seat to lucrative arms sales. I am hoping that Turkey is holding back the "smoking gun" implicating the Crown Prince and will drop that bomb when the timing is right.

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Re: Kashoggi killing

Post by kfchugo » 18 Nov 2018, 20:43

The Washington Post has reported a source within the CIA who advises that they have reviewed intelligence from multiple sources and have determined that the Saudi Crown Prince ordered the murder of Kashoggi. While expressing confidence in the CIA, Trump has said that he will make up his own mind on the matter after receiving a "report" this coming tuesday.

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Re: Kashoggi killing

Post by Warrigal » 18 Nov 2018, 23:20

He's full of it, isn't he?
If you don't have an ASIO file by now then you should be ashamed of yourself.

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Re: Kashoggi killing

Post by kfchugo » 19 Nov 2018, 12:33

THAT he is, Warrigal. I am growing increasingly concerned that the money America makes out of its relationship with Saudi Arabia will outweigh the need for justice in this case. I am thinking that Trump might give the Crown Prince the "benefit of doubt" as there is no evidence DIRECTLY linking him to the killing. This flies in the face of other evidence and expert opinion that points directly to him. People experienced in dealing with Kingdom officialdom know that NOTHING gets done there without royal approval - there is no such thing as a "rogue operation" in Saudi Arabia. :flaming_mad
Readers may have guessed that this matter has become close to my heart. Autocratic leaders around the world seem to have singled out the media and journalists for attack. MANY journalists have been assassinated in recent years and world leaders like Trump continue to show contempt for a free press. Likewise, I would not like to be a "whistle-blower" in todays climate.

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Re: Kashoggi killing

Post by Warrigal » 19 Nov 2018, 13:37

I am also disgusted by threats against the media, particularly news media.
I have my issues with certain commentators but I don't call for their silencing.
Talking about FAKE NEWS is an attack on all news because it allows people to reject any news they don't like.

Dictators take things even further. Remember what happened after a king uttered the words, "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?"
Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest? (sometimes expressed as troublesome or meddlesome priest) is an utterance attributed to Henry II of England, which led to the death of Thomas Becket, the Archbishop of Canterbury, in 1170. While it was not expressed as an order, it caused four knights to travel from Normandy to Canterbury, where they killed Becket.

The phrase is now used to express the idea that a ruler's wish can be interpreted as a command by his or her subordinates.
Seems to fit the killing of Kashoggi to a T.
If you don't have an ASIO file by now then you should be ashamed of yourself.

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Re: Kashoggi killing

Post by kfchugo » 19 Nov 2018, 15:58

At the very LEAST, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia MUST be removed from the line of succession. Should he become King, the country would lose all credibility on the world stage. Trump or anyone else who supports him will likewise suffer damage to their own credibility. :twocents-mytwocents:

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Re: Kashoggi killing

Post by Perrorist » 19 Nov 2018, 18:04

While SA remains the US's largest buyer of its armaments, I wouldn't expect much to come of this. Trump will do nothing.

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Re: Kashoggi killing

Post by Dreamweaver » 19 Nov 2018, 21:00

The order of succession to the throne of Saudi Arabia is determined by, and within, the House of Saud. Every King of Saudi Arabia upon his death, has been duly succeeded by the crown prince, with a new crown prince then being appointed according to agnatic seniority among the sons of Ibn Saud, though various members of the family have been bypassed for various reasons. A deputy crown prince (second in line for the throne) was first selected in 2014.

The current ruler of Saudi Arabia is King Salman,[1] who succeeded King Abdullah on his death on 23 January 2015. On the same day, Prince Muqrin became Crown Prince only to be replaced three months later by Muhammad bin Nayef at the order of Salman.[2]

On the morning of 21 June 2017, Muhammad bin Nayef was deposed as Crown Prince and Salman's son Mohammad bin Salman was appointed to the position.[3][4][5][6]

The current crown prince is a grandson of Ibn Saud, the second of his generation to be officially placed first in the line of succession. The appointment of grandsons to line of succession is based on merit. The Allegiance Council was created in 2006 to facilitate the royal transfer of power.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Successio ... ian_throne

The large Royal family, many of whom hold governing positions, seem very worried that things are so out of hand, and have difficulty communicating with the King, it seems. I think they favour the reinstatement of Muhammad bin Nayef, as being as progressive as the culture would allow.
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Re: Kashoggi killing

Post by Dreamweaver » 19 Nov 2018, 21:49

The royal family consists of thousands of descendants of the king who founded the country.
While Saudi Arabia was traditionally ruled by senior princes who divided major portfolios and made big policy decisions by consensus under the king, many of those once-powerful princes have seen their power cut. Some have been removed from prominent posts. Others were locked in the Riyadh Ritz-Carlton last year on accusations of corruption made by Crown Prince Mohammed. Still others and their families are banned from travel and too scared they might be arrested to speak up.

Prince Mohammed bin Nayef, the previous crown prince and counterterrorism czar, remains under virtual house arrest. He, his wife and their two daughters found out earlier this year that their Saudi bank accounts had been drained, a relative said. The sons of the former king, Abdullah, who died in 2015, have been neutralized. One was removed as the head of the National Guard, accused of corruption and stripped of assets, including the horse track he inherited from his father. His brother, a former governor of Riyadh, is detained, as is another son of another former king. Yet another brother is hiding out in Europe, scared that he could be kidnapped and sent home.

That leaves only the crown prince’s father, King Salman, to check his power. “There is one person inside Saudi Arabia who can challenge Mohammed bin Salman, and it is the king,” said Joseph A. Kechichian, a scholar at the King Faisal Center for Research and Islamic Studies in Riyadh.
But the king must consider not only the stain of the Khashoggi issue on his son’s reputation, but also how to continue the reform program known as Vision 2030 that the crown prince has begun, Mr. Kechichian said. Others question whether the king’s health allows him to grasp all that is happening. “One worries about the mental state of King Salman,” said Madawi al-Rasheed, a visiting professor at the London School of Economics and author of many books on Saudi Arabia. “Is he really in a position to make these decisions at this late age?”

Removing such a powerful crown prince could prove hugely disruptive, and few princes would want the job with a resentful Mohammed bin Salman scheming against his replacement. But one Western diplomat with long experience in the kingdom suggested that the king might check the young prince by reducing his power, perhaps redistributing control of the security services to other respected princes. “The brand has been irreparably tarnished — domestically they really do need to do something to rein M.B.S. in,” the diplomat said, referring to the crown prince by his initials. “They need to do something to corral him.”

One of the few with the stature to urge the king to make such a shift might be Prince Khalid, who flew to Ankara to see the Turks. A son of the late King Faisal and now governor of Mecca Province, Prince Khalid, 78, is esteemed in the family as measured and intelligent. That the king sent him on such a touchy mission indicates that he already has the monarch’s trust. His half brother, Prince Turki al-Faisal, was a longtime friend and patron of Mr. Khashoggi in the decades when he worked in the Saudi establishment before he turned critical of Crown Prince Mohammed.

Some foes of the crown prince have hoped for a challenge for the throne from the king’s brother, Prince Ahmed bin Abdulaziz. Prince Ahmed, 73, is the youngest of seven sons of the late King Abdulaziz who all shared the same mother, Hussa bint Ahmed al-Sudairi. The Sudairi seven, as they were known, formed a powerful bloc within the family and passed the throne from brother to brother — a pattern that might have extended to Prince Ahmed if King Salman had not redirected the line of succession to his own son.

So critics of Prince Mohammed were electrified last month when Prince Ahmed addressed protesters on the street in London who were chanting against the royal family over the war in Yemen. “What does this have to do with the Al Saud?” Prince Ahmed said, in comments caught on video. “Those responsible are the king and his crown prince.”

Saudi Arabia is facing perhaps its greatest international crisis since the revelation that its citizens planned and carried out the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001. Members of the ruling family are increasingly worried about the direction of the country under the leadership of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, the 33-year-old favorite son of King Salman and the kingdom’s day-to-day ruler. But unlike 2001, when the royal family came together to protect its collective interests, this time that may not be possible. Instead, there is deep concern, as royals search, so far in vain, for a way to contain the crown prince, who has consolidated power so completely that nearly everyone else is marginalized.

The one person who could intervene is the king himself, but senior princes have found it nearly impossible to bring their concerns to the 82-year-old monarch, and some doubt he is fully aware of what is happening or willing to change course. “The king has no capacity to handle it,” said an employee of a senior prince, speaking on condition of anonymity, like others in this article, because of fear of repercussions. Speaking of Crown Prince Mohammed, he said, “He is No. 1 and No. 2.”

Since the Saudi state was founded in 1932, the royal family has at times been torn by disagreements, even an assassination. But the thousands of princes and princesses who make up the House of Saud have ultimately found ways to preserve the dynasty. There was simply too much at stake to let family rifts get in the way of lavish lifestyles, exorbitant allowances and unrivaled privileges.

Then came Crown Prince Mohammed — young, brash and eager — who has systematically dismantled the system of consensus that kept the peace for decades. With all the power in his hands, the crown prince also abandoned the traditional Saudi foreign policy style that used quiet, behind-the-scenes deal-making and checkbook diplomacy. Instead, he moved aggressively, launching a disastrous military intervention in Yemen; kidnapping the Lebanese prime minister; and rupturing relations with Qatar and Canada. Meanwhile, he marketed a new Saudi Arabia abroad in which a dynamic economy would boom and women would drive. That pitch won over fans who saw him as exactly the kind of leader the kingdom needed to shake off its conservative past. Among those fans was the Trump administration, which made him the pillar of its Middle East policy.

But his rise irked many of his cousins, who now fear the worst as they helplessly watch the kingdom’s reputation become toxic.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/19/worl ... hoggi.html
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Re: Kashoggi killing

Post by kfchugo » 21 Nov 2018, 12:06

Trump has announced that he will take no further action or sanctions against Saudi Arabia. He did not refer to the Kashoggi murder at all. In doing so, I believe he has relinquished any claim to being the "Leader of the free world". He is prepared to allow the Saudi crown prince get away with murder to further America's financial and trade interests. He actually said that if the U.S. broke with Saudi Arabia, Russia and China would step in and reap financial rewards. Like virtually ALL wealthy people, Trump ranks money above all other considerations.
Maybe when the Democrats take over in the House of Reps, THEY may take some steps in this matter to restore American credibility. For all his tough talk and rhetoric, I believe Trump is quite a weak man. In American legal jargon, he has become "an accessory after the fact" 8-[

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