The protests.

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mavisbramston
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The protests.

Post by mavisbramston »

Love to,know what you think of the protests in Melbourne.
Sorry I recall we used to protest on apatheid, Vietnam, conscription, feminism , gay rights, pollution but these drongos deny that there is a virus.
They are so feral.
Me me me.
No doubt they think all lives matter except for seniors and the vulnerable.

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Trishia
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Re: The protests.

Post by Trishia »

It's one thing protesting about something which you think is wrong Mavis, BUT when it endangers the lives of people, then you should find another way to protest, but NOT street protests. These will spread the virus more quickly than anything else.
I know it has been hard on a lot of people, but unfortunately, there seems to be the only way to halt the spread of this affliction.
I think it's both selfish and dangerous of these fools who hold street demos.

:good_luck

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Dreamweaver
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Re: The protests.

Post by Dreamweaver »

I really wonder if some people downplay the seriousness of the virus, and wish to spread it for political reasons. :eek
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Perrorist
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Re: The protests.

Post by Perrorist »

That mob was full of conspiracy and anti-science zealots, egged on by the likes of Victorian MP Tim Smith and others who didn't bother to turn up.

mavisbramston
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Re: The protests.

Post by mavisbramston »

As a proud old leftie who attended many
demonstrations like apartheid and Vietnam I bever thought I would be barracking for the cops 😃

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Warrigal
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Re: The protests.

Post by Warrigal »

Trishia wrote:
06 Sep 2020, 12:48
It's one thing protesting about something which you think is wrong Mavis, BUT when it endangers the lives of people, then you should find another way to protest, but NOT street protests. These will spread the virus more quickly than anything else.
I know it has been hard on a lot of people, but unfortunately, there seems to be the only way to halt the spread of this affliction.
I think it's both selfish and dangerous of these fools who hold street demos.

:good_luck
Thoroughly agree, Trisha.
There are many ways to protest that don't endanger the lives of others.
Bombing court houses and disobeying COVID restrictions and not acceptable and should involve sanctions for the organisers.
"Great powers do what they wish; the rest of us do what we can"
Geoff Raby, former Australian Ambassador to China.

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Warrigal
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Re: The protests.

Post by Warrigal »

I read this today. It has been posted on Facebook by Rod Bower, the radical Anglican priest in Gosford, north of Sydney. Father Rod has quite a following because he calls politicians to account but in this instance he is calling all Christians to think about law, order, protests and tyranny. And love.

Here is his Facebook homily

Earlier this week Police in Victoria arrested a pregnant 28-year-old woman in front of her partner and two children for planning an anti-lockdown protest in regional Victoria this weekend. Further arrests occurred at protests yesterday.

In a statement, Victoria police said “any gathering of this nature is in blatant breach of the chief health officer’s directions and puts Victorian lives at risk”.

How did we get ourselves into this mess?
Was the woman wrong for encouraging people to meet during the pandemic? Yes of course she was.

Are we as a society so messed up that a significant minority can buy into conspiracy theories, and even elect members of parliament who share these views? Apparently, the answer to that question is also Yes.

Were the police just doing their jobs enforcing the law during a state of emergency? Yes, they were. Was it wise to enforce the law in the way they did, arresting a pregnant woman in front of her children? No it was not.

The arrest of an individual in such circumstances is supposed to be a deterrent, it is supposed to send a message. But the use of law as a deterrent not only necessitates the suspension of justice, it rarely ever produces the desired effect.

Besides, as a veteran protester I know that arrest is no deterrent, in fact it is a badge of honour and in reality, a tool for promoting your cause. But ultimately there has to be a better way to organise ourselves.

This is not a new argument; it is as old as civilisation itself.

St Paul writes:

Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not covet”; and any other commandment, are summed up in this word, “Love your neighbour as yourself.”

Love does no wrong to a neighbour; therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law.

When Paul writes these words, he is entering into the same difficult dynamic.

It was an argument that had been raging in his particular era for over 100 years. You have often heard me talk about the debate between the two opposing rabbinic schools of Hillel and Shammai. For Paul there was an intensely personal connection to one side of this debate, and it is not the side that is usually assumed of Paul.

Paul was a student of Gamaliel and Gamaliel was the grandson of the sage Hillel. Hillel taught that after loving God loving your neighbour was the greatest commandment, the fulfilment of the law.

In one of the many news reports during the week documenting the breakdown of society and the rule of law in America, I caught a glimpse of a building’s façade, carved there were the words, “Where law ends, tyranny begins,” The words belong to British philosopher John Locke but they were made famous by British statesman William Pitt.

Pitt used the quote in the context of the law limiting the power of leaders, thereby preventing them becoming tyrants. While that is entirely reasonable it is not the whole story. For without justice the law itself can become tyrannical.

The law is most often about order, but order without justice is tyranny.

For Paul of Tarsus, for William Pitt as for us, there is always the tension of order and justice, of law and love. The tension is a health one because when there is no tension, no balance; order gives way to chaos and justice gives way to tyranny.

In today’s gospel Matthew suggests that when there is disorder our first response should not be to simply to impose order but to enquire into the cause of the disorder. To enter into contained conversation, reconciliation and process. Order at its most sustainable is a delicate balance of law, justice and love of neighbour.

Order should only ever be imposed as a last resort in a state of emergency and then only until the balance can be restored.
We are living in a state of emergency, not because of the virus, but because the world is out of balance.

We can waste our time arguing about the rightness or wrongness of lockdowns or seeking to balance economic numbers with numbers of deaths, but we will be trying to reconcile the wrong things.

Balance can only ever be restored when we reconcile with one another. And the journey back into that state of divine and blissful equilibrium begins with a simple choice.

To “Love your neighbour as yourself.”

Fr Rod
I am impressed by this message, so much so that I have adopted one sentence as my signature.
"Great powers do what they wish; the rest of us do what we can"
Geoff Raby, former Australian Ambassador to China.

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Dreamweaver
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Re: The protests.

Post by Dreamweaver »

Warrigal, I love it, and the quote you have adopted. It reminds me of a quote from someone else but I forget who - "The absence of law leads to the law of the jungle".

Fr. Rod quotes John Locke - , “Where law ends, tyranny begins.”
Locke I have always admired. Just had another look at him and found his belief in law and order is much modified by reason!
John Locke considers the state of nature in his Second Treatise on Civil Government written around the time of the Exclusion Crisis in England during the 1680s. For Locke, in the state of nature all men are free "to order their actions, and dispose of their possessions and persons, as they think fit, within the bounds of the law of nature." (2nd Tr., §4). "The state of Nature has a law of Nature to govern it", and that law is reason. Locke believes that reason teaches that "no one ought to harm another in his life, liberty, and or property" (2nd Tr., §6) ; and that transgressions of this may be punished. Locke describes the state of nature and civil society to be opposites of each other, and the need for civil society comes in part from the perpetual existence of the state of nature.[7]
.
The conservative party at the time had rallied behind Filmer's Patriarcha, whereas the Whigs, scared of another prosecution of Anglicans and Protestants, rallied behind the theory set out by Locke in his Two Treatises of Government as it gave a clear theory as to why the people would be justified in overthrowing a monarchy which abuses the trust they had placed in it
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Perrorist
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Re: The protests.

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I'm reading "Clear Bright Future: A Radical Defence of the Human Being" by Paul Mason at the moment. To quote from the blurb, "How do we preserve what makes us human in an age of uncertainty? Are we now just consumers shaped by market forces? A sequence of DNA? A collection of base instincts? Or will we soon be supplanted by algorithms and A.I. anyway?

In Clear Bright Future, Paul Mason calls for a radical, impassioned defence of the human being, our universal rights and freedoms and our power to change the world around us. Ranging from economics to Big Data, from neuroscience to the culture wars, he draws from his on-the-ground reporting from mass protests in Istanbul to riots in Washington, as well as his own childhood in an English mining community, to show how the notion of humanity has become eroded as never before.

In this book Paul Mason argues that we are still capable - through language, innovation and co-operation - of shaping our future. He offers a vision of humans as more than puppets, customers or cogs in a machine. This work of radical optimism asks: Do you want to be controlled? Or do you want something better?"

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Warrigal
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Re: The protests.

Post by Warrigal »

I am no puppet and so far none of my children nor any of my grandchildren are either. I have an independent mind and my consent should never be taken for granted. Usually I am compliant but not all of the time. I can be obstinate, even bloody minded, when I don't agree with an action that is at odds with my deepest values.

I am a human being and part of a community or society. I am not a herd animal nor a programmed robot.
Last edited by Warrigal on 08 Sep 2020, 14:42, edited 1 time in total.
"Great powers do what they wish; the rest of us do what we can"
Geoff Raby, former Australian Ambassador to China.

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Perrorist
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Re: The protests.

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I wish there were more like you.

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lynny
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Re: The protests.

Post by lynny »

They're on the endangered species list aren't they?

ps. Just read that it's #ThreatenedSpeciesDay :good_luck

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Perrorist
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Re: The protests.

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:good_one

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Dreamweaver
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Re: The protests.

Post by Dreamweaver »

Sometimes protesting just entrenches the opposite side more firmly. But what can we do if not protest?

From Fr Rod Bowers, Anglican Parish of Gosford
This week we are once again conscious of the pain and suffering being endured by the Palestinian people at the hands of the State of Israel. Hamas must also take responsibility to how it responds to Israeli aggression.

Yes it is complex, but the complexity can be reduced to one simple question:
When will they love their children more than they hate each other?

This is the land of the historical Jesus and it’s not difficult to imagine him encountering similar dynamics in his time.
At the end of the day this is about politics, and all politics is domestic.
It’s about what today’s gospel reading calls “the world”, the domination system.
The world operates on a system of division: of othering, of friends and enemies, of borders, states and nations, of who’s in and who’s out.
It is utterly dualistic. It’s no surprise that the Latin word for the devil, diabolos, comes from the root word to divide. John’s gospel refers to the Satan as the ruler of the world, and that’s because the domination system in which we live is primarily based on division. Look at our two-party political system for instance. Our parliamentary process even uses the word; when the bells ring the Speaker calls for a division.
In John's reporting, Jesus is not asking for people to be taken out of the dualistic system, but to be protected from that thinking.
OK, so we don’t get to live outside the dualistic system, but Jesus prays that we won’t live within it with the dualistic mind. Does that make sense? Jesus is telling us that, although we by sheer fact of our humanness must reside in the mess, we don’t have to be partakers of the mess.
Everyone is in the system, and everyone in the system belongs to God and is loved by God.
Everyone is called to live within the system with a non-systemic mindset.
Everyone can come to know and experience that all humanity is one, loved by the same love.
Everyone can know that joy.
When everyone does, the system will change.
I dream, therefore I am.

mavisbramston
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Re: The protests.

Post by mavisbramston »

Very interesting. Will read it again.Thought provoking posts everyone.

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